Lessons, Tips and Tricks for Making Money With Interviews

Developing an affiliate program should be a top priority after your site is up and running with regular content additions. However, there is much more to it than simply putting up an affiliate link and hoping people will sign up. The “build it and they will come” mentality simply doesn’t work with affiliates.

It also takes a lot more than just paying great commissions to entice high traffic bloggers and sites to sign up. You have to be willing to do more to help your affiliates become successful – in their own sites and in your affiliate program.

One of the best affiliate programs around for content is INO.com. Brad Stafford was hired just over four years ago to jump-start their affiliate program and it has been a huge success. I wanted to get Brad on the phone and talk to him about what he did to make their affiliate program such a powerful force in their overall marketing program.

If you are a large content company or a single site owner, you’ll find tips in this interview to help you increase sales through a well-run affiliate program.

4 ways to watch/listen/read:

1) Listen to the audio here (click on the triangle play button):

2) Download the mp3 file here
3) Read the transcript (below the video)
4) Watch the video:

Transcript:

Tim – MemberCon.com: Hi this is Tim Bourquin. Thanks for joining me for another interview from membercon.com. The whole idea of these interviews of course is to give you something to think about in doing your own membership site and selling your own subscriptions and so I wanted to talk to somebody who really knew the affiliate side of the game and somebody who could also just talk about marketing a membership site. So today I’m talking with Brad Stafford, he’s the marketing manager for ino.com, i-n-o.com. It’s a financial website so I knew him from my other website that I do, Trader Interviews, my membership site but Brad does a terrific job of basically getting affiliates recruited, motivated and just marketing the site overall so I wanted to get him on the phone and have him talk to us about how he does that. He has generously offered to do that with me, so Brad thanks very much for joining me on the phone.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Hey no problem. With an intro like that I think I’ve a lot to live up to so hopefully I won’t let anybody down.

Tim – MemberCon.com: It’s good because I get your emails all the time and you really do a fantastic job of using affiliates to promote this site so I wanted to talk to a little bit about how you got started and did that. First of all, how long has INO been a membership site?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Well ino.com was originally launched in 1995 almost as an Amazon for the financial world selling books and as time went on I think at around 1999 is when we originally launched Market Club which is our premier membership site and we’ve pretty much been membership since then. We do operate another arm of the business which is just advertising and lead generation for when membership slows down, advertising is there to pick it up and vice versa.

Tim – MemberCon.com: That’s good. I want to definitely get into that lead generation part of that because I think that’s important for our membership site owners as well.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Yeah absolutely.

Tim – MemberCon.com: At what point did they decide to start doing affiliate marketing as a way to generate more memberships?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Well I’ve been here for almost 4 years now, 3 years I’m not sure but they started basically I would say 6 to 8 months before I came along and it was just I don’t want to say in shambles but there wasn’t much attention paid to affiliate marketing and to be honest with you I had zero experience with internet marketing and anything along those lines, I had a sales background. I’ve known Adam Hewison, the president, for years. I mean I went to elementary school with his daughter and he brought me on and basically said here’s what an affiliate program is, make it work make it happen and what I wanted to do is just change the way the internet and internet marketing worked from a business side where a lot of the affiliate programs that you deal with and whether it’s Commission Junction or whoever. There’s a huge blinding wall between the company and the affiliate themselves and so again what I wanted to do was to break that down and to make each affiliate a personal relationship. I did sales on a large scale and dealing with those interpersonal relationships hey how’s your dad doing? Hey, how’s your mom whatever the comment is, whatever the personal interaction is but that’s what I would say has made us so successful as we’ve grown to be.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Okay so initially there were hardly any affiliates or if there were they weren’t creating any memberships. What percentage of the memberships these days come in through your affiliates?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: It’s a good question. Right now I think we’re probably close to about 65 to 70% of our memberships, of our paying memberships are coming through the affiliate program, the affiliate network.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Wow.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: The free offers, the leads that we’re driving into our database I would say 80% are coming through the affiliates.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Wow that’s huge so it’s obviously a big part now of the overall revenue for the whole site. So how did you get started with this? How did you go out and find affiliates initially to approach and say hey how about promoting ino.com?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Well I mean the thing that I have in favor of me is we have a huge reach at INO. We have over 500,000 on our email list, we have millions of visitors every month and what I wanted to do was to go to each person, essentially you’re asking people to give up an advertising revenue, you’re asking them to bet on the com. You’re putting up our banners or posting our videos or whatever it is, is going to make you more money than your advertising a bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush. Well I’m trying to convince people that 2 in the bush is better than 1 in the hand and one of my ways that I’m able to do that is to say in all reality how can I help you? Whether it’s using my knowledge, using the tens of thousands of dollars that I know is spent educating me to pass that on to you or whether it’s how to harness some of our traffic and get it to your way. If people realize and people know that it’s a 2-way relationship it works much better and again I’d rather work on that kind of a level than just hey sell for me, sell for me, sell for me. What can I do for you and again it really takes their mindset off okay here comes another salesman as opposed to hey here comes somebody that wants to help me out and I legitimately do.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Yeah one of the things that I know a lot of people do with their affiliate programs is they just put it out there and they hope the affiliates will click on the link on their site …

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Right.

Tim – MemberCon.com: … and just get signed up and start promoting but obviously it’s not that easy and one of the things you do that I liked was you pay for a lead so even though somebody is getting something for free that I direct them too you pay me money for everybody that signs up every legitimate lead so they don’t have to buy something to earn money …

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Right.

Tim – MemberCon.com: … which is great for me as the affiliate. I’m wondering for a smaller company is that a possibility? When did you decide to actually to pay for a lead rather than pay only when they bought something?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Well the lead revenue and I sort of have to take a step back and address another side of our business where we have ino.com is a free site. It’s charts, quotes, news and more and it’s an advertiser supported site. We’re able to take advertisers’ offers and specifically target them to our users which are leads in our database. So we’re selling leads but we’re obviously using the advertiser’s free offer to drive that lead and we know what that value is, we know when X person comes in we’re able to, because of Dave Maher our tech director and his I would say just wizardry with the formatting of our database, we’re able to see specifically how much each user is worth. Where that source came from and then how much that person’s worth to us in the long term and it was about 2 years ago that I came up with the idea to launch Trend Analysis which is one of our free offers. Trend Analysis, right now we pay $3 per first name and email address that comes into our database through an affiliate. Over I guess the course of a year and a half the Trend Analysis email list is about 125,000 and 85 to 90% came through the affiliate network. Now what we did with that is we took those leads and obviously tried to up sell them into one of our paid services but if we weren’t able to do that that person went into the general sort of bulk INO database where then we could make up that $3 hopefully within a 6 to 8 month period. Thankfully because of the quality leads that affiliates are driving because we are paying so much for those leads, we’re able to turn that revenue around within a month. An old term in car sales is you rolled over in your car well we never rolled over in our leads which is a good thing because every asset that comes into our database is a valuable asset to us whether it’s $5000 over the course of a year or $5 we don’t care as long as we’re in the black.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Okay.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: So that’s sort of where we’re going.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Okay so you through a formula decided how much each lead is worth and then decided to pay affiliates based on that. I think a lot of people who have been listening to this might worry that, well how do I keep somebody from just throwing emails and mails at me that they just make up and create Yahoo accounts for.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Sure.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Do you kind of monitor how good the quality of the leads are from each affiliate?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Absolutely and the first thing is not only with the leads that affiliates drive us are they getting paid for that lead but we’re able to, again with Dave Maher’s help, we’re able to tattoo that affiliate code onto that person’s registration so when they order Market Club or when they subscribe to Market Club or INO TV Premium that affiliate’s getting credit. Now with regards to the quality it is a I don’t want to say never-ending battle but it’s always a back and forth. We don’t and I know and a lot of other affiliate programs are different but we don’t allow affiliates to run pay per click or any external marketing. Reason being is we had an affiliate who basically is just using our search words to drive in leads. Their commission check went from I would say a healthy $5000 to $8000 every month to $25000 where we took a step back I called him and I said hey what are you doing? Oh I’m using this, I’m using that. Well we don’t allow that and in digging more into that person’s leads we were able to figure out that he was either spamming or he was the owner of the most prolific Nigerian trading database in the world. So we had to put a couple of internal monitors in place where we’re able to track which affiliate and what their revenue per lead is so if it’s $8 per lead that’s coming in that’s good we’re making money on that person. But we also implemented a 30-day lag on the payments so an affiliate comes in and any affiliate sales for example in September that were made by that affiliate, those leads aren’t paid in October, it’s paid in November because what we’re able to do on top of just the basic tracking of revenue we’re also able to track how active that lead is. And again, a lot of companies are able to do this but a lot of them aren’t. I would encourage really anybody that database management is crucial and so what we’re able to do is say okay X affiliate sent in 50 leads and of those 50 leads 2 have actually opened an email, 2 have actually visited the website so we’re able to go into I contact that affiliate and say listen how did these leads come in? Oh they came this way and 9 times out of 10 they’re using something else either they’re going on forums to drive leads or whatever it is and so we are not liable for those leads. We’re basically able to say these 50 leads or 48 leads are now dumped from the database. It’s again an ongoing battle because we do we really are one of the only affiliate programs that pay for leads and pay for them in volume …

Tim – MemberCon.com: Right.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: … so it just sort of comes with the territory.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Now do you track an affiliate cookie or that tattoo forever? It seems like sometimes it’s 90 days anything they buy within 90 days. Sounds like you’re a little further out than that.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: We do and again the biggest thing when I came in and I guess I was in a good situation because I didn’t know business as usual so my mindset was, why don’t we pay these guys for much longer I mean their value to us is so high why not pass that along to the affiliate. I mean if we can pay affiliates $5000 every month versus $5000 and then $500 I’d rather pay them more over the long term and so our cookies are 365 days and again with the tattooing we’re able to, on our backend keep even more intricate track of that because the cookie system, it’s hard because it’s flawed but it’s not I mean you know.

Tim – MemberCon.com: It’s imperfect for sure.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: And so again one of my things was I would have affiliates contacting me and going hey I’m getting thousands of clicks and only so much recurring or so many conversions and through digging into that and this was about I guess about 2, 2½ years ago I sat down with my tech director and I said listen we need to get this solved and he’s like it’s going to end up costing us a lot more money and sort of saved sales or saved affiliate payments but I said listen it’s the right thing to do and he agreed and we put a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of effort into making sure that a lead that’s driven to us is attached to that affiliate and that affiliate’s going to get paid whether it’s $3 or whether it’s $180. We want to make sure that they’re getting paid because if you’re making money then you’re obviously going to continue work us. It just makes good sense in the long term.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Right. It’s like any business relationship, it’s built on trust. If they don’t trust that they’re going to get credit for that they’re going to stop promoting.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Exactly and there’s no reason. I’m relatively young when I came in and I want to develop long term relationships. I want to be in this industry because I love it for 50 more years hopefully doing more than what I’m doing now and with more success but I want to know you Tim in 50 years. I want to know everybody else that I know in 50 years and be able to look them in the face every day and say I did everything I could to make you as much money as I could.

Tim – MemberCon.com: How about the software that you’re using? Is it something you built in-house?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: No, actually we currently are using a third-party service called Direct Track and Direct Track it’s been good I mean I think with anything that you use whether it’s Microsoft or whatever whatever affiliate program management system you use they’re going to have things where you’re like hey I wish I could change that, I wish this could work a little better. But overall I’ve been happy with Direct Track. They give us the ability again to if we’ve got problems I can sort of burn the phones up enough to get it solved relatively quickly.

Tim – MemberCon.com: So one of the things you do is you go out and you contact these affiliates and you say, look we can make you money but one of the things you also do different is you say if you promote us, we’ll promote you. You’ve got a very popular blog that you allow people to do guest posts on if they promote for you so it’s more than just you’ll make money if you promote us, we’ll help promote you too. Has that been a big factor in getting affiliates?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Absolutely. with INO our services are not $5000 courses you know. They’re low-priced courses because we want to hit every trader. We want to provide the highest quality service possible but we don’t and especially now in this economy we don’t want to break people’s trust by saying okay it’s $10,000 when we know what it’s really worth and that’s sort of a disadvantage to me because there’s other affiliate programs out there that can go out to new affiliates and say hey if you promote our affiliate program you make 10 sales you make $1,000 a sale, that’s a pretty good chunk of change. With our service it takes a lot more to get to that point so and again with me what I want to do is build that relationship of I can help you in more than just sending you a $1,000 commission check every month. I can help you learn more about marketing. I can work with you to help improve your email marketing or whatever it is and absolutely, the guest blogs have been very popular with affiliates it’s a great place to get exposure for them and it also benefits us because hey it’s great content for our site so it’s really a win-win.

Tim – MemberCon.com: a lot of companies out there kind of put affiliate marketing into the same vein as just general marketing. A lot of times it gets thrown into the lap of just somebody else who’s probably got a ton of other things on their plate already. Do you recommend hiring somebody just to dedicate only to affiliates and that’s all?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: From personal experience if you want to have an affiliate program that makes more than 50 bucks a month you’ve got to have somebody that’s working more than 50 hours a week. I’ve worked with too many people that go, oh yeah help me learn about affiliate marketing and then they’ve got 18 different things on their plate and can’t focus on it. I mean if you want to continue to get more affiliates every week, if you want to continue to build those relationships, add more sales, add more revenue it is a full-time job. I work, no lie, between 60 to 70 hours a week just making sure everybody’s happy, making sure I’m staying in touch with people. So you really can’t realistically expect oh get an affiliate program put it on Commission Junction or Clickbank and we’ll roll along. That might happen but it won’t happen for long and you won’t have much success.

Tim – MemberCon.com: So you’ve probably tried a lot of different things in your approach to a brand new affiliate? What works what clicks when you say when I pick up the phone and I call or I email here’s what typically works for me to get them interested?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Well I mean the big this is with me again integrity and honesty is first and foremost and when I go to a new affiliate, before I pitch them on the affiliate program I basically say, listen I’ve got some services, I’ve checked out your site, which I do, I’ve followed you on Twitter, I’ve checked out your Facebook whatever it is, I come to you for a reason it’s not only because you probably have decent traffic but you are good at what you do and what I want to do is have them look at our services because it’s just like the car salesman who sells Volvos but drives a Honda. You really can’t believe somebody is going to put their name behind something that they don’t like so before and affiliates say well I don’t like Market Club but I like INO TV for example and I want that honesty. I want affiliates that tell me like it is. I don’t want just marketers who are like; oh I can sell 50,000 of these. Great but where is the integrity behind it? So what I do is say, listen let me give you a staff membership to our services to check them out because if you’re not willing to check them out, look at them as quality services then you’re not going to be a good affiliate long term for me because you’re not being honest. You might say oh this is a great service but you’ve never actually looked at it, you’ve never actually checked out our charting package or anything along those lines.

Tim – MemberCon.com: So.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: So with me I like to take that to him and say look at it first then we’ll figure out what we can do from there.

Tim – MemberCon.com: And how about who you accept into the affiliate program. It’s easy to put a link up there again and just let any blogger pick up an affiliate banner and post it but do you kind of concentrate on that long tail of a lot of bloggers with a little bit of traffic that add up to a lot I mean or is it the 80/20 rule that 20% of your affiliates give you 80% of the revenue.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: We market different. There are services that market on a large scale where they basically gather up all their affiliate reach and then over the course of 2 weeks send out emails, do blog posts, just selling the product and what we do is market more on an informational basis. We have the Market Club educational videos where we’ll teach about Apple and diversions so something along those lines and so we require a huge reach and bloggers are by far the biggest for us. There’s 2 things; one, I’ll take a blogger that makes 1 sale a month because they’re excited, they’re easy to work with you get back and forth emails real fast and more often than not they’re good genuine people. I’ll take that versus a huge Bloomberg deal because you spend so much time wasting trying to get to the right person, trying to do this oh we got to get this approved or we got to get that approved. It’s a matter of valuable time and sure Bloomberg could make 10,000 sales but in the time that it would take them to get those sales for me I can get 100 affiliates who would make a sale a month for me and I’m fine with that and I don’t have the headache so I love the bloggers because they’re just so cool they’re interesting people and again they’re the majority of our business, they’re the reason our videos are getting 50,000 views at a pop.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Yes, speaking of those videos one of the things you guys also do really well is you create a lot of free content to give to your affiliates to give to their list which drives traffic. So how would you decide how much content to give out for free to kind of spur those affiliates to keep talking about you?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Well again with Market Club the videos are really the connector point that we have with our audience and the affiliate network is a big part of that. Again, most of our affiliates are bloggers or educators in some realm and they don’t want to continue to sell a service but they’ll post free content it saves them a blog post, it saves them a tweet whatever it is and they’re able to say, hey here’s some free content, I looked at the video, I thought it was interesting they give their 2 cents about it whether they trash it or whether they praise it doesn’t matter to us I mean you’re giving your honest opinion and that’s what people want that’s what your visitors want as a blogger, as an email list owner is people want your honest opinion about something.

Tim – MemberCon.com: So do you push to have them put an actual post out about a piece of content or is a banner ad on the blog the most effective. What works best?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: banner ads, maybe I’m skewed but the only thing that banner ads are really good for is branding. I mean the way that you’re going to connect to an audience is through harnessing that blogger’s or that website owner’s credibility in your favor. when I go to a blogger and I say you can put up banners and that’s great but I really want you to use the service and watch the videos because your word is worth more than 100,000 impressions because 100,000 impressions might get 50 clicks but 1 blog post might get 1,000 might get 500 and that’s much more valuable not only to them but to us and so I would much rather have email blasts go out and tweets and Facebook updates and blog posts than everyone go well I’m just going to do the banners. I mean the banners are great. They’re going to make some money for you but they’re not going to be as effective as a personal interaction with your visitors.

Tim – MemberCon.com: So then, do you give every affiliate a free trial to all the services?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: I give them a lifetime staff membership.

Tim – MemberCon.com: So they can access everything they want forever?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Everything.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Even the smallest traffic blogger affiliate?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: I don’t care; it’s all going to work out for the better. Here’s a perfect example. When I first, I guess it was about 2 years ago I had really just stumbled across the blog and I’ll hold the name off for now but heck of a nice guy, emailing back and forth, had great ideas about markets and a very, very intelligent guy and had very little if any traffic. He is now one of my biggest affiliates because he had that staff membership and he’s grown where Market Club is almost intertwined with his website so the visitors that come to his site they go, hey I relate this with Market Club, I relate this guy with Market Club because he’s been there so long. So if I just said okay so and so, I’ll give you a 1 month trial, let me know what it is then where we are now where he’s making $8,000 to $10,000 a month without even trying that would be hurtful for both of us. So, I look at it as you’re going to benefit from our services in one way or the other and all the updates that we make we update to real time and add the UK markets and we go in to Australia with Market Club, that’s all going to be included. Again, the big thing is integrity from me and if somebody likes the service then they’re going to be a much better affiliate than somebody who says, oh yeah it looks like a good service, you’ve got some good marketing material but they’ve never actually opened the webpage.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Well that definitely sets you apart and I suppose it’s nothing you couldn’t take away if you’ve given somebody a membership for a year and they haven’t given you a single lead, there’s nothing that says that you can’t turn it off because they’re not active anymore …

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Sure.

Tim – MemberCon.com: … but it’s just that I like the idea that, I think most people that want to start an affiliate program come from it as they’re not to be trusted, they’re going to try and screw us, they’re going to try and make money. You come from it as, let’s give them everything they need to sell and don’t burn a bridge because you never know what somebody’s going to turn into you know, I like that.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Yeah it is and again I’ve had a couple battles with the partners here because of that reason. I said I want to give it away forever. Well we can’t just do that and a bunch of umming and ahing and they’re on board making sure that I give out 50+ memberships a month. So yeah it’s worked.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Okay so if you had to go back from day 1 and talk to yourself and say here’s what’s worked best out of all these things we’ve tried some worked some didn’t work. What I’m getting at is tell our listeners what you think was kind of the most valuable thing that you have learned that you wish you had known that first day when you started.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Oh boy, the first thing that, to be honest, what I would do is tell myself, figure out how you can help them first because if you can help them with something they’re going to help you and that’s by far proven to be the most successful I guess sale pitch for me is saying listen, I want to figure out what I can help you with. If I can help you accomplish your goals then I can work my goals into your goals.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Excellent.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: That’s it, that’s it.

Tim – MemberCon.com: That’s great Brad. Well hey I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today. I think our listeners will get a lot out of this.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Great.

Tim – MemberCon.com: And listeners, if you want to go check out how ino.com does their affiliate program, it’s i-n-o.com. Actually, is there a better place to send them Brad, to take a look?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Yes actually, ino.com/insider and that’s our affiliate only blog so that’s a private blog. Also shoot me an email, brad@ino.com and tell me that you heard my interview from Tim and we’ll go forward from there. I’ll get you a staff membership, if anything I’ll get you a staff membership.

Tim – MemberCon.com: I appreciate that Brad and oh one other thing I forgot to mention that I thought that you do really well is you develop a separate list and separate marketing altogether for your affiliates versus your customers which a lot of people don’t do. They don’t see the affiliates as somebody they need to have a whole marketing plan around directly.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Yeah again it comes back to the personal interaction. You’re not going to send the same email to your users that you would your affiliates because I go to my affiliates in a personal way and say, hey let me open myself up and ask you to help me and ask you to post this and ask you to do this you know. I don’t expect anybody to do it. I always give myself a thumbs up like hey great, so and so posted this or so and so tweeted that. I look at it as little wins and every person on that affiliate list needs to be managed differently than your main user-list so absolutely keep them separate keep in touch with and do everything you can to help them.

Tim – MemberCon.com: That’s right. One other question I forgot I …

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Yeah.

Tim – MemberCon.com: … need to ask you in my notes here. Contests, do you run contests every so often for affiliates to see who can sell the most and are they effective?

Brad Stafford – INO.com: We do and the contests are effective it’s again I think with us and I mentioned it previously is we don’t pay out a lot. We pay out 40% per sale but the sale price is not $8000 so the contests are a good way not only to get the affiliates excited about something cash prizes whatever it is but it also gives me the ability to open up a little more of myself and tell it like it is. The last contest we had we did a drawing where my now 2-year old son pulled out the winners and everyone had a good time, laughing about him, joking and all that stuff but the contests are a good way you just have to I’m still learning the contest thing because we do things a little bit different. It’s not a performance contest, it’s a participation contest. So if everybody participates you get an entry and so then we do random drawings from there.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Okay so it’s not about who can bring in the most leads in a month.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Well it depends. We don’t do it like that just because that doesn’t fit with our model. Other affiliate programs do where they say okay here’s a lead contest, whoever does the most leads but what I found is again because I’ve got so many of those bloggers I would instantly blow them out and they would go, oh great here comes a contest where these 5 guys are the only top 5 who have a chance whereas I’d rather have somebody who made 1 entry win something because then he’s going to be like, hey look at this I won something I just got 1 entry. sometimes it pisses the people off at the top but if they’re at the top they’ve already made 15 grand or whatever in a commission check versus the 500 that the 1 guy with the the 1 entry made.

Tim – MemberCon.com: So a good idea yeah maybe mix the 2. Maybe a company may have a performance one then next time you get 1 lead and you’re entered into a random drawing. I like that too.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: Yeah and again you’re hedging yourself with we’re able to hedge because we have advertising to back up so if that person just drives in 1 lead for us we’ll make money off of that person. Will we make the $5000 or $2000 prize back? Maybe not for a couple of years but we’re able to back that up so the performance might work better for the smaller affiliate with really just that focus to go on to reward the high performers and to essentially keep them coming back.

Tim – MemberCon.com: Excellent Brad, hey thanks very much for your time, I really appreciate it.

Brad Stafford – INO.com: No problem. Hey thanks everybody for listening, appreciate it.

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